At the Risk of a Religious Flame War...

[HawkZombie]

10. If Heaven exists, what would you like to hear God say when you arrive at the Pearly Gates?
An explanation for why he's such a sadistic, irresponsible bastard.

In another thread Tana posted the 10 Actor's Studio questions, and ccoa gave that reply and several others agreed.

This is for INTELLIGENT DEBATE...facts of course have little bearing here as religion is about faith...or lack thereof...or completely absence of belief. I do NOT want to see this turn into a huge flame fest, please.

Now, that said, here's what I want to simply state to get things rolling, and why it struck me.

God is not sadistic or irresponsible. People are. We were given free will and our own desires doomed us. God doesn't get involved because a majority of people don't want him there unless it's the end of their world. What being, god or otherwise, would want that?

Faith has a lot to do with it. Faith in knowing God doesn't cause Bad things to happen, people do. And Faith in knowing God isn't letting bad things happen, people simply don't want him there to fix them.

If God wanted blind servitude, we all wouldn't be here in the first place. He wants us to develop faith in knowing that yes, past the 'awful evil horrible life', there's more.

Free will is a double edged sword. I often find people blame god when the bad side of it shows up, but he's non-existent whenever good things happen. God didn't raise this orphanage, I did. God didn't save my Husband's life, that surgeon did. And then, why did God let that man rape and kill your sister? Why did God let that husband murder his wife and three children because of the voices in his head? Why did God let that woman abort her baby with a coat hanger and bleed out in an alleyway?

So...why the double standard?

Just my thoughts on it. My opinion. Nothing more.

[Professor Yoshi]

...past the awful evil horrible life...

Why do people always say that? I love life, bad times come, and bad times pass. But existence is something you really shouldn't take for granted. I mean, what if this is all you've got? Shouldn't you make the most of it?

I recall reading that thread and it was a little unnerving. Even if you believe in a higher power, you must not rely on it. I mean, religion is perfect for keeping a large majority of people in line. You do good, and you're rewarded later and vice versa. The problems come in when people start using it as an excuse to why their lives are miserable. People need to know that they need to help themselves before others can help them.

I don't want to get off track, but I believe that the main fault with religion is that there is only love for your own religion. The same with how love for your own race can breed hate for others.

[HawkZombie]

I agree totally. I'm religious, and by the very nature of religion all others are either wrong or misguided.

It's kind of a deadly catch 22.

I don't rely on God to get me through the day. I rely on myself. Life amy be good or bad, but in the end it's just me. Sure I'll pray and I've got my faith, but it's my flesh and blood that have to carry myself through this life until I die. Then we'll see how I measure up.

That is, of course, if I don't get my robot body >.>...lol.

But yeah, that's another thing about religion that has always gotten me irked...it's so damn exclusive...Sure Muslims aren't exactly going to be the same as Jews in beliefs as Jews aren't the same as Christians, but who's to say there isn't some shared truth in the doctrine?

[ccoa]

You have misunderstood my position. My view isn't that the monotheistic god is sadistic and irresponsible because some people's life sucks and some people are, for want of a better word, evil.

The god worshiped by the monotheistic religions is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient. All-seeing, all-knowing, all-present. No?

That means that when he designed us he deliberately did so with physical flaws that he knew would cause pain and suffering later. Every genetic disease in existence he could, should, and must have foreseen. Every person who suffers and dies from Huntington's can be laid at his doorstep. Every person with the lupus or autism or Down's syndrome gene. Every person with MS. Every person with Parkinson's. Every single genetic flaw is his and no other's fault, should he exist.

One's genetic makeup has nothing to do with free will. One does not choose their genes. Until very recently, no one even knew what genes were.

[Barbatos]

It could have been worse. We could have been like rabbits, who have to eat their own poop in order to get enough nutrition to live.

[Lene]

But yeah, that's another thing about religion that has always gotten me irked...it's so damn exclusive...Sure Muslims aren't exactly going to be the same as Jews in beliefs as Jews aren't the same as Christians, but who's to say there isn't some shared truth in the doctrine?

There is. The God those three faiths believe in are the same god. Just my experience dealing w/ all three religions at some point (although more Christianity and Islam than Judaism). Also it's not that exclusive. There are some openings for togetherness I feel.

Also how do you respond when someone mentions evil like earthquakes, hurricanes, volcano eruptions, etc.?

[Atnas]

I'm rolling on the floor with laughter died :evillaugh:

[Lyricmaniac]

I agree with you sketch. I get tired of hearing people blame G-d when really it's humans that deserve the blame. Evil is a human concept, in my opinion.

As far as physical abnormalities and painful diseases and such, I believe that G-d got the ball rolling and evolution took it from there. Of course there are going to be deviations, some of which are good and some of which are not.

[psgels]

Let me first say that I don't believe in God, but I basically agree with ccoa. God is supposed to have created man, and he "saw that it was right". Then why are things like autism, and other kinds of genetical diseases in this world? If there really was an almighty god, he would have designed a flawless human. In my opinion, at least.

[Atnas]

To enter the kingdom of God you must pass the test. Just saying. I really don't understand the "Why is there suffering?" question. If a god wanted to save human souls, it would present obstacles and those who steadfastly braved them while looking to him would be allowed entrance. You have to put faith in your deity and treat mortal suffering as inconsequential, or perhaps beneficial, to your goal of eternal companionship with said deity.

I don't necessarily believe in whatever I'm saying, but I understand the theology, which is important. You need to understand what you're objecting.

(I have faith that all beliefs have credibility. IE Likelihood of Jesus == Likelihood of Flying Spaghetti Monster)

[HawkZombie]

See, to combat that 'then why are there genetic abnormalities' and the 'Why do we deliberately have physical flaws'....people aren't going to like my answers.

God designed us perfectly. If we go with faith, we did this to ourselves. Genetic defects are a result, basically, of improper breeding somewhere down the line OR just out and out evolutionary anomalies in which someone bred with the one carrying the aberrant gene. Don't want an autistic child? Be more selective with your prospective mate.

God had nothing to do with it, again, people did. It sounds like a cop out, but when you actually look at the argument (and the overall point I'm trying to make) it's pretty damn logical.

God has no hand in humanity after its creation. The only time we'll ever see God or feel his presence aside from a divine miracle (And no, burritos in Mexico don't count) is when we die. So what is the point in blaming him for everything if we're not going to give the same amount of credit for what's good in the world?

I'm not arguing about God's involvement. I'm arguing about hypocrisy about blaming god for what's wrong but then turning around and saying he is in no way responsible for anything food. Pick a point of view. Either you believe in a god and he's done some shitty things, and some good, or you believe in god and he's started some wonderful things, but at the same time has let people do their thing because we doomed ourselves. Or simply do not believe in god: don't blame or praise him, he doesn't exist.

When Adam and eve gave into temptation, they doomed themselves and humanity. Of course, one could argue how could God create Satan to be evil. Well, Angels have free will as much as we do. He just got power hungry and paid the price, just as Eve and Adam gave into temptation for knowledge.

In the end it boils down to faith. You either have it or you don't, for better or worse (on both sides). I will always, no matter what, firmly believe we did this to ourselves, not the other way around.

As for natural disasters? Who's to say they -aren't- planned? In a perfect eco-system there are checks and balances as to when certain species are dominant, and when they are recessive. If we were allowed to breed and continue on unchecked, we'd all be extinct by now. Of course, on the other side (If you believe it) We've been causing more natural disasters than normal due to our 'ride it hard and put it away wet' philosophy to handling the world that we only recently seem to care about.

It comes down, again, to 'if you're gonna blame God, then give him credit to.' You can't have it both ways.

[Atnas]

As for natural disasters? Who's to say they -aren't- planned?

HAARP!!! the freemasons caused katrina

But great post Sketch. I wish more people like you would explain this.

[HawkZombie]

HAARP!!! the freemasons caused katrina

But great post Sketch. I wish more people like you would explain this.

Meh, I'm just writing it as I feel it. Most of the people here (actually, all of them) are intelligent and recognize it as such. If I were to go into a church or an agnostics/atheist convention, I'd be treated with a rather large amount of disdain.

[ccoa]

God designed us perfectly. If we go with faith, we did this to ourselves. Genetic defects are a result, basically, of improper breeding somewhere down the line OR just out and out evolutionary anomalies in which someone bred with the one carrying the aberrant gene. Don't want an autistic child? Be more selective with your prospective mate.

Genetic flaws exist in all breeding pools. They are the result of mutations, not of poor breeding. You can't tell how perfect a person's DNA is by looking that them, so asking people to be more "selective" about their mates is ridiculous. Every single person has, on average, 10 serious serious flaws in their DNA. The good news is that most of these flaws are not also in the copy for that gene, and our body automatically uses the "good" copy rather than the jumbled one. You can't even tell they have it, until they have a child with another person with a defect on the same gene, and the child is unlucky enough to inherit both defective genes.

How could being "selective" about mates have prevented that when we didn't even have a basic grasp of genetics for 99.99% of our entire history?

Humans are far from perfect and have never been perfect as far back as we can observe. We are imperfectly designed to walk upright, for one thing. That's not a genetic flaw - it's simply an imperfection we all share. Knee and back problems are almost all related to this flaw. Our hips aren't wide enough for childbirth, leading to the most painful and dangerous childbearing process in the entire animal kingdom. I could go on and on about how poorly the human animal is designed.

My argument is that God could have and should have predicted each and every mutation in the human species. He could have prevented it when he made us (NOT after, but before). He didn't. Thus, if he exists, he is a either sadist or simply didn't give a fuck that billions of innocents were going to suffer.

God had nothing to do with it, again, people did. It sounds like a cop out, but when you actually look at the argument (and the overall point I'm trying to make) it's pretty damn logical.

Uh, no, not really.

God has no hand in humanity after its creation. The only time we'll ever see God or feel his presence aside from a divine miracle (And no, burritos in Mexico don't count) is when we die. So what is the point in blaming him for everything if we're not going to give the same amount of credit for what's good in the world?

Thus the irresponsible part. You create something with flaws already built into it, knowing that it's going to suffer, then abandon it. Right.

Besides, this is directly contradicted in the Old Testament. God did directly interfere with humanity on multiple occasions. And in the New Testament, what is a healing miracle but a direct divine intervention?

I'm not arguing about God's involvement. I'm arguing about hypocrisy about blaming god for what's wrong but then turning around and saying he is in no way responsible for anything food. Pick a point of view. Either you believe in a god and he's done some shitty things, and some good, or you believe in god and he's started some wonderful things, but at the same time has let people do their thing because we doomed ourselves. Or simply do not believe in god: don't blame or praise him, he doesn't exist.

I don't know why you're arguing this, no one is claiming it. I don't believe in the Christian god and I don't blame him for anything. If he did exist and I was wrong, I would be furious with him. I would hate him so much that I would rather spend an eternity in torment then share an afterlife with him. And since the question implied that I was wrong about there being a Christian god, that's the explanation I'd want from him. Simple as.

When Adam and eve gave into temptation, they doomed themselves and humanity. Of course, one could argue how could God create Satan to be evil. Well, Angels have free will as much as we do. He just got power hungry and paid the price, just as Eve and Adam gave into temptation for knowledge.

This makes me wonder if people think about what a warped Aesop Christianity is. It's okay to punish someone to the umpteenth generation for the sins of the ancestors. It's okay for an innocent person to die for another's sin and that makes everything forgiven. But God loves you. What the hell?

[HawkZombie]

*shrugs* Honestly? It comes down to faith.

I can't explain it beyond that because I simply can't. I believe in a just God, you don't believe in a God. Simple as that.

I still don't see how you could blame him, however. We did this to ourselves, but we -continue- to do this to ourselves. We're hardly paying for the sins of the ancestors when we repeat the offense every generation.

Yes, genetics is far more complicated than I made it out to be and it's impossible to predict the results of a cross pairing, but in the end it DOES come down to breeding. What is evolution if not extreme selective breeding? Mutations happen for good or bad. They are all but eliminated in the animal kingdom because animals refuse to breed with something that is at a DISadvantage. Evolution at it's purest is the continuation of a species with the best qualities for survival.

Humans can't and won't prescribe to this because we've grown out of our instinct. Everything has free will, but not everything has reason, compassion, and love.

It sounds contradictory, and I admit that, but that's where Faith plays a major role. I have faith in the 'grand design'...I think there are far more things at work here than ANY one can even begin to fathom. I take nothing in the world at face value.

But I think my argument is losing ground by being spread thin across several points.

I just think if people are going to damn god, they should praise him too. If they believe enough to hate him, you'd think they would believe enough to acknowledge he's done good too.

EDIT: Also, how are we to know the suffering is not in fact part of the grand design? To not only test our faith and resolve, but to overcome it and appreciate the life we have even moreso? I'm not saying God gives kids cancer to make us all pray harder...I'm saying things happen for a reason, either by divine providence or evil influence. God's not the only one pulling (or not) strings.

[ccoa]

I don't believe enough to hate him. If such an entity were to exist, I would, but since it doesn't, I have no feelings either way. The doing of good does not somehow balance the doing of evil. A serial killer that also goes around saving people from fires is still a serial killer.

Since there is no evidence that there is any rhyme or reason the vagaries of fate, I can't really answer that except to say it's as valid an opinion as the opinion that things really are as random as they appear.

I'm not sure how you can maintain the perspective that a person isn't being punished for the sins of their forefathers when their genetic code is laid out before they are born, and thus before they have any free will at all. A single cell can't choose to do evil or good. But it can be fated to suffer and die from Huntington's, regardless of how it chooses to live life after its birth.

I once spoke to a priest whose position was that the pain of childbirth was entirely due to original sin. If so, all women are being punished equally, regardless of how good they or their immediate ancestors are. A saint suffers as much for the sin of Eve as a murdress and adulterer. How is that just? How is that even right?

[Kojo]

If God exists (I'm gonna let you guys decide on that one.) then he or it, or whatever he is gave me something incredible. I was born, and thankfully I will die (I can't think of anything worse than festering long after my expiration date).

At least I exist. I would rather do that than be nothing at all. And just for that I should be thankful.

We can blame God all day for things we cannot control, it's easy. What is difficult is when you try to change the things you can control.

I understand what Sketch is saying, and yes, people will believe in a higher power when it is convenient. This means either when things go well, or you need someone to blame injustice on.

I also understand what Ccoa is saying. If God was so powerful and omnipotent, why are there physical deformities? Cancer? Hereditary diseases? Why are some kids born with downs or dyslexia? If God creates each one of us how is he good and holy?

I can answer Ccoa like this: Maybe because God is so sinless he does not know wrong. Perhaps because he knows no wrong, he can commit no wrong, just like a baby will punch someone or steal someone else's candy, but still won't be wrong, simply because it does not know better.

Or you could guess that none of this was around before Adam and Eve first sinned, and they are the punishment sent down the bloodlines. Or maybe Noah and his son's kids all interbred and got super messed up.

They are weak musings, but it's the best I can come up with.

[Thunderclam]

Think about the implications of a "God does not know wrong" model of the universe. It contradicts the nature of God as commonly defined by devout scripture-believing Christians. Why would they accept this point of view as an explanation for why fucked up shit seems to happen under the benevolent, omnipotent God's watch.

Sketch's argumentation is full of holes, fallacies, and clumsy dodges for things he has no answer to. I understand that he has this notion of people who aren't particularly religious blaming God for the bad turns in their lives, but never giving God credit for the good turns. This does happen. However, what is the point of asking people to stop this behavior? It's a cornerstone of religious belief, after all, that we project what we can't immediately comprehend and cope with to some deity. There are people who thank God for the good and completely dimiss God's responsibility for the bad. This is what Sketch is doing. It's an alarming inconsistency.

I don't mean to flame Sketch, but I think his argument here is pretty typical in that it purports to speak for God, based on information in a book written over several hundred years by various authors and then changed again and again over the course of the next 1000+ years.

A serious historical examination of Christianity means facing the fact that Christianity is a ridiculous fallacy. On a philosophical level, the questions it raises may be worth exploring, but the premises have very little contextual meaning because of the biases and expectations of the people doing the asking.

In short: what's the point of intellectually exploring the nature of God, or whether or not a God is possible, if you already think you have the answers?

It's also important to remember that all of this hinges on an acceptance that human beings have total free will, which actually makes little logical sense. Free will is like our favorite bed-time story. The innumerable factors that influence our decisions are almost completely outside of our control, meaning that if we do have any freedom of choice at all, it's mind-boggingly limited. To fully understand almost any decision, one must try to fully understand the entire breadth of human history to completely grasp the causal chain that stops with you and your choices, but begins with the beginning of our species.

If God designed us, God is responsible. It is, for rational people, easier to believe that God doesn't exist than it is to believe in the absurdity of the Christian god.

[Raven The Dark Angel]

In my opinion people see things too black and white. Death=bad all the time. Pain=bad all the time. Is NOT true.

Take it from someone who's lead a pretty screwed up life not do to MY action as a human. And though I would never shake my fist at "god" or the higher power or whatever floats your boat. Because every ill that I have suffered has lead to great wonderful things. Everything happens for a reason.

Open your eyes and see past the begining of things. Yeah pain and suffering are bad when you are feeling it but what do those paths lead to? They teach you and shape you to become a better person and you begin to have more knowledge, understading, and sympathy for the world around you.

The spoiled child hates to be told "no" and wants everything good. But then if they aren't spanked and such then they become spoiled and no good. No one wants to be around them either. So in order to be fixed "bad things" like that need to happen.

Of course you may think "oh but I have done nothing to deserve this!" maybe you haven't. But I have lead a life where I have done not much wrong and stil have had so much happen to me. And why do I still keep my chin up? Because after suffering so very much I know I have learned a great deal each and every time from them. Don't stare at just the bad. What has this suffering lead to and shaped you to as a person?

I strongly believe a lot of what happens is people get too caught up in their logical punishment to the crime. But it doesn't work that way. Don't wory about how others lives are either. Because they are learning differt things than you are and you have differernt suffering tolerances.

Trust me if they are higher powers they know what they are doing. So just like the child that hates mommy for spanking them. They'll understand later on when they learn grow up and become an adult just what exactly that was all about.

Right now if you question it, you just haven't gotten to that point yet and still need to learn. Its okay too it's part of the process to think like that. But keep going and you'll be at peace with all those terrible things and be on your way to reaching the perfection the high force desires you to have and that you will desire to have as well.

>> well that's my opinion.

[Thunderclam]

So your advice is to just chill and trust that not only do the "people in charge" know what they're doing, but that terrible things are really just hardships and trials on the way to peace and serenity?

I wonder what people in Darfur would say about that. Not that I'm knocking your perspective, at least when it comes to individuals anyway.

[Raven The Dark Angel]

Your argument is that I haven't suffered enough to understand so you throw the poor and hungry at me? I'm not belittling their suffering nor mine. But my life certainly wasn't candy and rainbows, trust me on that. I have gone through a great deal and have learned much. It's all there for a reason. You can cry about it and feel sorry for yourself all your life or pick up grab what you can out the experience and move forward. Your choice really.

I know my persepective is highly radical and hard to understand. But blaiming others, and feeling sorry for yourself does nothing. Pick out the good from the bad and there you will feel at peace. Because not everything is so black and white. There is good and bad to everything around us.

[Thunderclam]

I didn't say you haven't suffered enough to understand. I'm trying to illustrate that your philosophy might work for individuals, but it fails on any larger picture.

For someone who talks about black and white, you seem fixated on the situation being either your way or some sort of existence where a person wallows in self-pity.

There are other alternatives. What you should know, however, is that I more or less agree with you that hardships in an individual's life are formative and usually prove to benefit that individual. The same might be said, from a historically conscious perspective, about nations or something.

But what does God have to do with that? This subject is about how people want to blame God for the shit that happens in their lives, or the really crazy large scale stuff like natural disasters.

Your philosophy works for something like a break-up or getting fired from your job. But does it really apply to something like a genocide and God's implicit role in that?

Your point of view is not so radical, nor hard to understand. I just want you to see that it's a very limited perspective and it doesn't add much to this discussion because it's an individual, humanist philosophy which requires no attention to the issue of God let alone what God's level of responsibility is for the bad things that happen to us.

[Raven The Dark Angel]

Great scale as well. When huge natrual disastors occures you find people suddenly helping eachother out without questions verses when they normally would shun one another.

I say my opinion is radical because I'm not talking about the pick up on move on part. But I think suffering is a good thing and I always welcome it into my life because they are things I find are good because I can always learn from them.

Why doesn't my opinion add much to the discussion? That's rather rude don't you think? Either way from what you said about it being on a grand scale. So god only controls natural disastors and not indvidual fate? God doesn't care about people on an individual scale so talking of suffering on both individual and grand scale is not allowed?

[Thunderclam]

I just don't think that your addition to this discussion, at that earlier point, was valuable in terms of what this discussion is about. Nothing rude about that.

If you're going to amend your point of view to talk about God, now, then we're fine.

So what you're really saying is that even if you believed in God, you'd welcome the suffering that causally originates from God because you'd think it was valuable to your life experience?

[Raven The Dark Angel]

My point was everyone associates with god as good and that he only does good things. And people get angry with the bad stuff that he does right? So what I was saying is don't think of the bad as all bad. And the whole "he works in mysterious ways" may be that you don't understand the greater good that it results in.


So what you're really saying is that even if you believed in God, you'd welcome the suffering that causally originates from God because you'd think it was valuable to your life experience?

Yeah exactly. Funny thing is I dont really believe in god ^^; Maybe there is a higher power but either way I find that stuff gave me value. But the point was that you can dig for positive even in the worst things. So with that and God being associated as all good and such I figured it was a way to reason why god does what he does, ya know?

[Guardian]

Christianity is such a strange religion and it can sometimes contradict itself because it's been altered for the benefit of the church. There was a point where only a select group of people from the Christian church could read or write, so their copies of any original manuscript may not say the same thing as the original. It's funny how God is so loving and caring, yet you can be sent to hell for not believing in him. What's even funnier is the idea that you can repent for your sins and clear your record. It's all been influenced by the churches, which is why I view it as a messed up and manipulative idea that was implanted into our minds as truth. The ideas weren't evil, but their translations are.

Saying that, I believe that perhaps God was much less active than has been suggested. The prophets may or may not be real, but I highly doubt that God has shown himself to any living human. Perhaps he made some errors in his design, and then didn't fix them because we wanted to be in control of our own lives. As much as people say they want God to fix everything, I know we'd all be freaked out if he came out of the clouds and started changing everything. We treat this as our planet, not his, and I believe that, should he exist, he is respecting our wishes to be left alone.

[Thunderclam]

I think a lot of the problem with the inconsistencies in Christian doctrine comes down to a basic failure to reconcile the old and new testaments.

[Guardian]

I may have come off as a little anti-Christian, but I'm really not. I have no problem with what people believe or don't believe. I do, however, have a problem with certain churches. When the Christian church was dominant in Europe, the churches would let people pay to be forgiven for their sins. More recently, Reverend Wright was using his position as pastor to spread his political ideas. I'm not saying that all pastors would do things like this, but it seems that the power and influence tempts many people into inserting their personal ideas into speeches. This is why I think corruptness may have influenced the current ideas of Christianity.

I just thought I should clear up what I was trying to say. I'm horrible at expressing what I'm trying to say with words.

[ccoa]

Christianity is such a strange religion and it can sometimes contradict itself because it's been altered for the benefit of the church. There was a point where only a select group of people from the Christian church could read or write, so their copies of any original manuscript may not say the same thing as the original. It's funny how God is so loving and caring, yet you can be sent to hell for not believing in him. What's even funnier is the idea that you can repent for your sins and clear your record. It's all been influenced by the churches, which is why I view it as a messed up and manipulative idea that was implanted into our minds as truth. The ideas weren't evil, but their translations are.

Actually, there are extremely old copies of the Bible in existence, and the Hebrews used an interesting method called a checksum that allowed a scribe to verify that each line was exactly correct after writing it. That means that any Bible in the original Hebrew is exactly the same as any other bible in Hebrew, going all the way back to when the checksums were adopted.

There are over 24,000 ancient copies of the Bible in existence (dating back to 125 AD), and between them only 40 lines, total, are disputed.

However, it is true that the Church did alter and destroy historical texts that did not support Christianity. It is also true that there are inconsistencies in the Bible and even outright fallacies. It is true that there is no corroborating evidence for most of the New Testament, including no evidence for the life and death of one Jesus of Nazareth (or of Nazareth itself during that time period, for that matter).

[Thunderclam]

The Torah and the Old Testament you see in Christian Bibles are two different things. The Jews are actually pretty amazing for the historical record of their religious beliefs, but Christian sects have altered and tinkered with the original Old Testament provided by Judaism throughout the last two thousand years. So your 24,000 copies of, what exactly, aren't actually "the Bible" that people in, say, Nebraska would read.

I won't pussy foot around my own disposition toward religion: I'm strongly anti-religious. When I was a kid, religious people were tolerable because they didn't have a political agenda. They were only out to affect the lives of other religious people (well, except for missionary religions like Mormonism, but missionaries are easy to ignore in this part of the world). Now, religion infects or at least tries to infect every aspect of my life from the movies I watch to the games I play to the wars that will define my generation. Not to mention the policy decisions on major issues which are made by cowardly, pandering politicians. Maybe it just seemed to be in the background when I was younger, but was there all along. All I know is that the current sheeple movement toward some kind of North American theocracy needs a good, old fashioned "fuck you" from everybody with a working brain.

I'm an advocate of the Bill Maher and Christopher Hitchens perspectives on religion. Dawkins is good too.

In my view, the general affinity for tolerance and civil rights (like the right to religion) that defines liberal-minded people is used against us by the fundies. A lot of prominent people are saying it's time to draw a line in the sand and stop letting the fundies take advantage of these tendencies, make it an honest to God (pun intended) fight.

[ccoa]

The Torah and the Old Testament you see in Christian Bibles are two different things. The Jews are actually pretty amazing for the historical record of their religious beliefs, but Christian sects have altered and tinkered with the original Old Testament provided by Judaism throughout the last two thousand years. So your 24,000 copies of, what exactly, aren't actually "the Bible" that people in, say, Nebraska would read.

...They are 24,000 copies of the Bible. Not the old testament alone, not the Torah, the Bible. Other than the language, they are exactly what a person in Nebraska would read. When I say the Bible, I mean the Bible. Not the Torah.

The copies of the Torah that are around are much older than that. The oldest manuscript dates back to 800 AD.

[Lyricmaniac]

To clarify, there are fresh copies of the Torah made daily. Not all Torahs are old. They're done by people called sopher stam. The words never, ever change though. Nothing is lost in translation. It's not just the words either. The symbols, the enlargement of certain letters, the spaces necessary... all recorded exactly as it was thousands of years ago. The English bible has quite a few things that are either improperly translated or incompletely dictated.

[ccoa]

I didn't mean to imply that the only copies of the Torah are ancient, only that the oldest copies of the Bible are relatively recent compared to those that are preserved for the Torah.

There's always going to be errors in translation, because languages never translate to each other perfectly, but fortunately there is still the original documents to look at when all else fails. Some translations are also better than others (most scholars agree that the King James translation is probably the best). The original documents are unchanged since at least 125 AD.

All the changes that transformed the Torah to the Old Testament occurred relatively early in the history of the Christian church, about the same time the books that would make up the New Testament were selected.

[Lyricmaniac]

Oh ok. I misunderstood your post. Truth is I'm not really paying much attention to this thread, but the Torah caught my attention so I thought I'd chime in.

[Kojo]

Are we forgetting the Red Sea Scrolls? And how the translations of those are so close to the Bibles in circulation? Historically, the Bible's events hold true. Theologically it is up in the air. I'm fairly certain that Jesus being a real man is a common held truth. Besides, it was a common name at the time. But I mean the Jesus that we've been deliberating about.

[Thunderclam]

I also misunderstood Ccoa. I would like to see documentation on this 24,000 copies bit. I've never heard of this.

[ccoa]

http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/bib-qur/bibmanu.htm

There are plenty of other sources, but few so well cited.

@Kojo, you might want to read this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

[Thunderclam]

Thanks, Ccoa. Should be interesting.