Some things I would like to avoid...

[Erk]

standard disclaimer: These are just my thoughts, not law.

There are three major trends I think SponGen should try to avoid, and I see a tendency already towards two of them. That doesn't mean that current trends need to be squelched, but if folks agree with my reasoning perhaps we should keep a wary eye out.

Trend 1: RMXP thinking.
Most design-oriented things cannot be sorted into "project" and "resource". I think the tendency to want a "projects" forum is unnecessary, myself. A game can, and should, go pretty much anywhere based on what you think the key aspect of it is. Most RMXP games probably belong in Writing, as Writing is what defines an RMXP game (they are not unique in the graphics, sound, or programming sense). However, an rmxp gamer working on a visually stunning game might want to put their project thread in Visual Arts. Further, I don't think we should have any problems with cross-threading: a thread in writing describing your game's writing and overall project, a thread in visual arts with sprite art and discussion of graphics, and a thread in programming to describe your fancypants CBS, for example. Links in the lead posts would keep everything intertwined, and the discussion on particular aspects would probably be easier to follow.

We really already had that on rmxp.org, but the line was fuzzy. If I had a "projects" thread in projects, I could also have a graphics thread in Resources and a scripts thread in RGSS. The difference is that this community is not an RMXP community. Many members are not making RMXP games, and I hope to attract more members who want to make... well, more serious things. Not dissing RMXP, of course, but the majority of the RMXP community is not the kind of community I want critiquing my novel.

Trend 2: Gimme gimme gimme
The minute this place becomes another resource/support repository is the minute I stop feeling like hanging out here. I think that is the case with a lot of people, since it was one of our biggest frustrations at the old forum. Thus, no "request" forum, and I really don't know if we should have one. With the child thread system, if we can make it, it gets a lot easier to have a "Mr. Popail's C++ request thread" with child-threads for individual requests and support. Failing that I am not sure how much we should welcome or even allow too many requests. Asking for help, by all means, but not asking for someone to do it for you. This needs a lot more development before it is ready to be a forum policy, and I would like further feedback.

DO NOT GET ME WRONG, I think the support ticket system could be awesome. I am just concerned it and systems like it may lead to people treating this as a gimme-gimme site, and not giving back. What I think is ideal is a system where people help each other and contribute their work for critique. Allowing too much "help me" work will undermine that, resulting in an overwhelmingly large group of people who only come to the site for tutelage, and leave as soon as they get it. Most of such people would do just as well with a manual or a wiki if they had the patience to read it (and I do not believe making such a wiki is our job).

Trend 3: Feature Creep
This is part of the danger of open-sourcing aspects of the forum. I think what we need to do is develop a clear idea of where we want the forum software to go. Until then we should not be including mountains of cool features, multiple skins, or other fancy stuff. It is too easy to get sidetracked into developing a massive cool Zoints user system, and wind up burning out our servage before we even have the front page working. It is important to stay focused: work on making what we need to make, more than brainstorming what we could have. I am as guilty of this as anyone!

In this vein, I think we should be careful to stick with one custom skin until the forum software is programmed. Trust me, I learned that the hard way with .org: updating a dozen lovely skins to include thirty template modifications is excruciating. This also applies to... well, almost everything! Keep It Simple, Stupid :D

OK, that's all for now. Please read and critique!
What we should aim to do with a forum is

[psgels]

The first point is going to be hard to do, now that there are a large amount of topics already made in the projects forum (when did that one appear?). Still, I do believe that as soon as people start posting non-rmxp-project, others should get the idea.

I agree with you on trend 2 and 3, though. I don't feel like making this place a site for leechers like rmxp.org. The recruitment-forum should also stay far away, as more often than not, it caused people to get way too ambitious with the prospect of having various people working under them in mind.

I also agree that we should first get the things we really want for the site, which means the member-control of the topics and the front-page(?). If Mac has any trouble with this, I could help him with a few small tasks. And I can imagine how updating the umpth skin after a new feature must sound like a headache. ^^;

[Atemu]

Totally agree with you on the first two points, though I think what we have now as far as "projects" is fine. A project forum for all kinds of projects, works for me. And child threads sound awesome. Lord knows I'd need a massive list of "I need this script, plz". @_@;;;

As far as features, I say keep it simple. First and foremost, get a new kind of spoiler system, 'cause these are fugly. Another tag I personally like that I put on Blue Sophia is the tag, which is exactly what it sounds like, and would be great if we decide to put up links to those RMXP tutorials that are on there. I'm not sure what else, but I know personally, I wouldn't mind a blog and a nice simple green skin, 'cause I <3 green.

[HawkZombie]

As for Requests:

What about paid work? If a person has a concise (someone will need to write up a basic framework for the poster to follow) thread about how they are looking for someone to work with them on a project, and how they are willing to pay/trade for said work...I think that would be ok...MUCH more than 'I need stuffz PLZ'

If anything, I think a classified sort of section would handle this need very well. People looking for work, or offering their services, for SOME sort of trade/monetary exchange. That way, we discourage people from making simple request threads, and encourage people to help one another (Hey, if someone says I can't pay much, but I can do other things, I'm more inclined to help them because of that, and I understand where they're coming from.)

Otherwise, excellent ideas, Erk. KISS. Keep It Simple, Stupid is the way to go.

[psgels]

I actually think that if people really need paid help, they can just do this in the thread of their projects. I don't think there's any need to create a whole subforum on this, because you just know that it's going to be spammed by idiots. This became clear to me after moderating the recruitment-forum on rmxp.org for a while. :P

[HawkZombie]

Ah, but what if they don't have a project thread?

And that's why the classifieds would have a clear, consice format for putting yourself out there looking for help, and looking for work. Any posts that don't meet it get deleted. Simple as that. Sure, it might mean a little extra checking, but eventually people will get the hint and do it correctly, and if it goes well, it could be a powerful tool.

[FoxDemonSoavi]

Honestly, the commercial forum wasn't totally horrendous. if we do anything it shouldn't be a classifieds thread. it should be a commercial discussion area.

Also, one feature we really need, is a thumbs up device. only the originator of the thread can see the thumbs up they get. this way people that don't have anything to add can show the person they read it and liked it. It avoids all the problems of a rating system since he only person that can see the thumbs up is the originator.

EDIT: NVM ccoa's suggestion telling people how many times their thread was added to someone's favorite list si better. we discussed it in the IRC

[Lunarea]

This is just a suggestion/personal preference, but I'd absolutely love to have a Trading Post for resources. It goes along the lines of the classifieds.

It doesn't have to be a sub-forum. It can be one sticky thread. And it would essentially be a place to say that you're looking for something and are willing to offer something else in return (for example, looking for a spriter, willing to offer music in return). This could also be used for commercial requests (money for service).

In order to help with the moderation, it could have a pre-set template that the posts would have to be in, or they'd get deleted.

Since the users are encouraged to be more self-sufficient in the moderation, they'd be in charge of updating their requests. And it would really only give all the contact info so people can arrange things in private, discouraging multiple threads popping up asking for one resource or another.

[HawkZombie]

From IRC:

How about this: We have a Commercial Forum Area...With Two Subforums ONLY. Commercial Discussion is the main area (ALL aspects, from several areas of industry), and then subforums: Looking for Work (Giving the poster the option to close whenever they aren't looking), and Looking for Help (Giving the poster the option to close their thread once help is found) Now...I know two subforums are bad and all...but it might be ok for THAT section of the site.

I personally think that might be good, and might as well move the 'Trading Post' to one of those subforums.

[Euphony]

I agree that we should keep any kind of request forum far away from here. As a resource request mod back on .org, believe me when I say that it starts to become a massive headache (and I think Tana and Mac could back me up on that, as well as Erk and ccoa of course). Essentially, it's a giant magnet for the "I just joined here! I've never contributed, but I need this, I need that!" crowd.

However, I think Lunarea's idea of a "Trading Post" sticky would be cool. Just post your info, then whoever's interested can PM you, and at the end you can go back and get rid of your post. Keeps it private and clean and is less of a distraction.

As for projects, I'm not sure how I feel. I'm afraid that splitting our RMXP projects into visual and writing might be kind of a hassle, but I also think that it would help us get better, more specific feedback on the different aspects. And I agree on the point about not wanting RMXP to dominate the forum, so finding a way to mesh RMXP projects with other types of hobbies/work would be really nice. ...But I also don't find a problem with the current Project Base forum, so again, I'm torn on how it could be handled.

[Mac]

Euphony said it all and i coheartily agree.

[Erk]

Since users can move their own threads, closing the current project forum when the time comes should be easy-shmeezy. Just prevent new posts/threads from being created there and add a sticky telling people to move their threads to a new appropriate forum, and let the users handle it.

See how awesome self-moderation can be?

I really think this "no projects forum" thing is kinda important. I could, maybe, see a "general creation" forum working I guess, for people making something so multiplatform they don't know what to do with it, or something that just plain can't be fit anywhere else. Like, I dunno, discussing recipes. That's still creation, but I wouldn't say cooking belongs anywhere yet. I could get behind that, provided the forum was not specifically geared to "projects", mostly of the RMXP nature. Mods would not have to move a "writing" post that got put in "general" of course. It's the user's problem that the feedback they get might not be as good or as specific to writing. I still think this is leaning towards subforum creep though: it creates that annoying "fuzzy line" where you aren't sure if you want to post in Writing or General for your thread. The difference is that either is fine, it's just a matter of what kind of feedback you want.

I do agree that people willing to give goods or services in return for help should have somewhere to go. I am still not entirely sure if this is the place though. Remember, folks, a single forum/community does not have to supply every need. By trying to focus on doing one thing and doing it well, we're far less likely to find ourselves buried in a quagmire of complicated rules and regulations, massive lists of subforums with different rulesets, and everything else that makes moderating and attending a forum a job rather than a fun passtime.

However, I am pretty sure that if folks really want a Commercial subforum, or maybe a [commercial] metatag, it would not kill the place :)

[FoxDemonSoavi]

I really am against dropping the project forums. I am so-so on the commercial sub forum. And we need meta tags up and running soon.

[Erk]

Does having a general design forum for "other" designs and mixed-media designs satisfy your needs sovay?

[Draken]

Rather than completely drop the Project Base forum, change it to some sort of Gameplay forum, thus intertwining with your ideas about visual, writing topics.

[Erk]

Again, why gameplay? A multimedia design forum would be equally interesting to someone making, say, a graphic novel, or a music video.

[Draken]

Well, it doesn't have to be -just- gameplay, but something related to it.
But wouldn't the graphic novel be more fitting for Visual with the music video being fitting for the Visual and the Sound forums?

[Kettlehead]

If people want to request work, for a payed commission or not, can't they just arrange it between eachother privately? If the whole forum is based around people displaying and discussing their creative work, then people can privately approach anyone they're interested in asking to work with. I think a place where people can advertise work they're specifically looking to do might be helpful, but I don't know if a requests forum would actually make things easier. In fact, people just putting a note in their sig saying that they're willing to take on work could be best if we're trying to keep things simple.

[psgels]

I dislike gameplay. It's way too specific. And I mean, a general forum for other design sounds good enough. I'm with erk on how the forums shouldn't focus on game-design, despite our roots.

And the visual-novel problem can be solved with the ideas Erk's been having, with th subthreads within threads, where one of them could be about the music, and the other one about the graphics.

Edit: kettlehead: but then you get that the ell-known members keep getting bothered by pms to join their project, so I think we need something more. Though it indeed doesn't need to be our top priority.

[Kettlehead]

Is there any way of tying together groups of threads across different forums? A sort of 'project feature' so that the writting thread, graphics thread, music thread, etc of some project could be linked to each other and stay in different sections. Come to think of it, it wouldn't be any hastle for people to do that on their own, as long as they know they're supposed to. A project is just a linked up bunch of features, and if those features all have their own design thread then instead of a separate project thread people can link up the existing threads. Otherwise they're just going to be repeating what they're written elsewhere.

On the other hand, style/format of gameplay is something that can be dicussed in it's own right. It doesn't exactly fit in with writing. Anticipating that lots of people here are going to be interested in game design, I think that's worth having a forum of it's own.

[FoxDemonSoavi]

I don't see whats wrong with a "projects" forum. It is for projects, ANY project. Heck, someone needing help cleaning the environment. thats a project. PROJECT is a vague word. WE just associate games with it a lot because of our roots.

[Cup o' Wisps]

True. I'm already planning on posting in the projects forum something that has nothing to do with rmxp or computers.

[Erk]

I don't see whats wrong with a "projects" forum. It is for projects, ANY project. Heck, someone needing help cleaning the environment. thats a project. PROJECT is a vague word. WE just associate games with it a lot because of our roots.

I suppose that is true, but at the same time, with the major base of users we're starting with, calling it a "project" forum is going to lead to it being treated as a "game development" forum. Giving it a different name might, I hope, help a bit to dispel that prejudice.

[FoxDemonSoavi]

Agreed. Call it a Work In Progress forum

[Erk]

Howabout just General Work, Multimedia Work, or something like that? Everything on the forum should be a work in progress.

[FoxDemonSoavi]

ehhh true. why multimedia?

[Erk]

trying to think of a better word that means "could fit into multiple categories"

[FoxDemonSoavi]

*nod* multimedia sounds like it could fit.

[Cup o' Wisps]

multimedia always stirkes me as a film piece/gaming type deal, personally. Well and music, but - okay.

[Erk]

ooh what about Diverse Work

[Cup o' Wisps]

I like the sound of Personal Projects. It just sounds eclectic and adds to what I feel this site seems to be reaching for - a more personalized medium of persons, not entities.

Diverse Works is good though. It does show off an eclectic vibe, and it brings in the idea that a project has a much larger scope. Especially if one were able to, as I read somewhere (though I know not the standing), combine the elements for their project. That is writing, art, etc.

Not that I'm anyone or anything, but I'd say those two -for me anyway- match up the feel I've gotten from this place. That feel of course is mine, doesn't have to be what was aimed for or what everyone wants naturally.